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Talk:Jigen's Ten-Tails
Eye Its eye is exactly the same as Kaguya's as the Ten-Tails, though having just 6 tomoe, but so did Kaguya initially before later transformations. What people forget, is that in-universe, Sasuke has never ever heard the term 'Rinne Sharingan' unlike us readers who know about it, in fact, no character has mentioned it so far. So of course he is gonna label it a Rinnegan since he doesn't know any better.... he did the same thing during 4th Ninja War where he called Infinite Tsukuyomi a Rinnegan Genjutsu, yet databook provided us with information that it's a Rinne Sharingan thing. Short version: Sasuke doesn't know the term Rinne Sharingan so he calls it Rinnegan instead.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 06:08, June 10, 2019 (UTC) :Agreed. 20:43, June 10, 2019 (UTC) ::Ditto.--Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:22, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Thank you for feedback. This is one of those tough cases.... we should document exactly what is stated, but should we document things that are mentioned but possibly not true if we know better? With the first approach, we should have listed the Sharingan as evolution of the Byakugan according to Kakashi when he mentioned such in early Part 1, but we didn't because he stated a theory, not a fact. Some fans forget, that not everything the characters in-universe state has to be a fact, they are not written to be omniscient. In this case, we know that Kaguya as the Ten-Tails' eye is Rinne Sharingan, this Ten-Tails' eye looks identical. Sasuke has a precedent of calling Rinne Sharingan just Rinnegan, so it seems reasonable to ignore what Sasuke says, change it to Rinne Sharingan and note in the Trivia that Sasuke called it a Rinngan.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 06:38, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :: Well the RAW did say that the beast possessed a Rinnegan, not a Rinne Sharingan. Heck do we have the Rinne Sharingan even appearing in name uin the manga itself?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 07:11, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Did you read what I wrote above? No, we don't, hence Sasuke doesn't know about Rinne Sharingan, only we do as readers.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 07:19, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::: Could be a retcon however, wouldn't be the first time a dojutsu was called something else and in the manga it was called something else. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 07:42, June 11, 2019 (UTC) Should we give precedence to information from a supplementary guide book that is five years old, over the latest information found in the source material? And for what reason would the author purposely mislead the reader — even years after the guidebook's release? Maybe we should reevaluate our thinking. Maybe the Rinne Sharingan is a Rinnegan, just as the Mangekyou Sharingan is a Sharingan.--Klue (talk) 11:43, June 11, 2019 (UTC) It's not our job to correct the manga. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:34, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :Don't we already do so though?--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 13:35, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::We can't, really. It's not like our articles magically change the manga. The people read "Sasuke said Rinnegan", go to the wiki and read "Sasuke said Rinne Sharingan" and think we're stupid. Just document the manga, it's not that hard. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:40, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::Sasuke also said that Infinite Tsukuyomi is genjutsu of the Rinnegan, we note that only in trivia, though.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:02, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::Language is flexible enough to make certain side-steps in text, if necessary. When I wrote the chapter article, I considered such a contention could happen, and instead of writing out the dōjutsu's name, I just said he made note of the eye, which is still true. As far as article texts are concerned, this remains viable, but for infobox listing purposes, we would be required to forego the artifice. Also Seelentau, I've lurked in other forums and places where there's Naruto fandom discussions, people think we're stupid one way or the other, no matter what, no matter how correct we try to be. I've seen people calling us dumb because they thought we listed the same user three times in the Wood Release: Cutting Technique article. If we just document the manga, repeating the manga's inconsistencies means we're stupid. If we work through the inconsistencies with logic and list things more sensibly, it's different from what the manga says and it means we're stupid. Omnibender - Talk - 14:46, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::"Rinnegan genjutsu can be dealt with using Rinnegan... probably." --- I thought Sasuke was telling us that the Mugen Tsukuyomi is a type of Rinnegan genjutsu. Not that the eye itself is literally a Rinnegan. --Klue (talk) 16:43, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::::Cept it's a Rinne Sharingan genjutsu. Technically, as the progenitor, Rinne Sharingan is both a Rinnegan and Sharingan and to our knowledge, Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers of its own, those stemming from the Sharingan side. In fact, Sasuke's 'Rinnegan' could protect from the Mugen Tsukuyomi only through the use of his Susanoo, a Sharingan power.... this is pretty much all the evidence we need to deduce that Sasuke doesn't know any better and labels anything resembling the Rinnegan as such.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 17:06, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::::I realize the Mugen Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu of the Rinne Sharingan. Did not suggest otherwise. I'm simply pointing out that Sasuke only spoke on the type of, or the family in which the technique belongs. It's not as if he said, "Rinnegan's''' genjutsu." --Klue (talk) 17:25, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :"It has a dōjutsu that Sasuke Uchiha identifies as a Rinnegan, but which more closely resembles a Rinne Sharingan." ''~SnapperT '' 17:33, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::That's what we can do for the articles, but it doesn't solve what we treat it as in the infobox--[[User:Elveonora|'''Elve]] Talk Page| 17:41, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :::The possibility of being wrong exists even beyond whether it's a Rinnegan or a Rinne Sharingan because you don't know whether to call it a kekkei genkai or a kekkei mora. Just do |Kekkei Mora=Rinne Sharingan~~presumed and move on. ''~SnapperT '' 18:01, June 11, 2019 (UTC) Point could be made as to why we even have a new article for this creature. Jigen called it Ten-Tails, so why is this information not in the Ten-Tails' article? To the people saying it's different from Kaguya's TT: How do you know, without knowing its backstory? At the moment, aside from its looks, there's nothing that suggests it's anything else than the TT we already knew. The only thing we don't know is how it got there. So if we'd want to be 100% correct, this article should be merged with the original TT. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:54, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :For it to be the same TT, there would have been need to acquire at least some portion of the nine tailed beasts again, and with Naruto being their communications hub, one of them would have sounded a distress signal, or at least went "I can't talk to X any more, something's up". Something like this seems very significant not to mention. Even in the anime Shukakau dropped a word to Gaara about losing contact with Gyūki. Omnibender - Talk - 19:10, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::True. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:29, June 11, 2019 (UTC) ::: Not to mention it can't be Kaguya, she was depowered and sealed in a new moon in her primary dimension.If it were Kaguya, that'd be the Gedo Mazo.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:39, June 11, 2019 (UTC) Notice how every time we see a Rinnegan with only 6 tomoe whether its red or purple, it is almost consistently called just that, a Rinnegan. While the 9 tomoe red Rinnegan is almost consistently called the Rinne-Sharingan in the 4th Databook and manga except for a few off moments like with Sasuke. The Ten Tails in the 4th War had only 6 Tomoe for the longest time while it was not at its full form/power, when it regained its full form before Obito absorbed it it had 9 tomoe again. I think the 6 Tomoe Rinnegan can attain 3 more tomoe, becoming a Rinne-Sharingan, or that maybe with Kaguya and the 10 tails the Rinne-Sharingan reverts to the 6 tomoe Rinnegan when they are low on power/chakra. It seems they are indeed connected in the way of power and chakra levels affecting them, as Sasuke refers to IT as a Rinnegan Genjutsu while DB4 says it is a Rinne-Sharingan Genjutsu. Sasuke's 6 Tomoe Rinnegan once he loses enough chakra reverts to a normal looking Rinnegan. I think if Sasuke had the chakra needed, his Rinnegan would gain 3 more tomoe becoming the Rinne Sharingan and he would gain the abilties that it brings.. but since he doesn't have the right chakra nor the right amount of chakra the 6 tomoe Rinne Sharingan is what he has. Not to mention the Rinne-Sharingan has the power of the Sharingan and the Rinnegan hmm.. FlatZone (talk) 19:59, June 11, 2019 (UTC) :Just a slight correction: the only time we saw the post-revival Ten-Tails with nine tomoe was when it was in its God Tree form, the actual beast itself was very consistently drawn with six. It might have had nine when Madara revived it the second time (with the full Eight-Tails and half of Nine-Tails) but we don't know because the entire eye wasn't shown. So technically the only time we ever saw the Ten-Tails have nine tomoe was in its silhouette debut (and maybe that one panel in Hagoromo's flashback when its eye seemed to have extra). Anyway, I'd argue that assuming the dōjutsu changes from a Rinnegan to Rinne Sharingan is a lot more speculative than assuming Sasuke just got the name wrong. There's already a precedent in this series for characters to refer to techniques and abilities by incorrect names, such as Orochimaru calling Jūgo's power a cursed seal and various people referring to Hirashin as Shunshin.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:13, June 12, 2019 (UTC) :WAgreed. Irrelevant, but I speculate and would argue that the amount of tomoe by itself doesn't matter, the way to tell a Rinnegan is by its ripple patterns and grey/purple/silver whatever color. while Rinne Sharingan looks like Rinnegan, but is red in color instead, with possibly as you suggest, the amount of tomoe varies according to chakra levels.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 14:46, June 12, 2019 (UTC) :: My rationale is that they're all future plot points to be addressed in the Boruto manga. Whats obvious is that only ONE Juubi was ever addressed as well as the fact Sasuke never actually witnessed the Juubi in its first incarnation during the Naruto manga. AnonymousAnomani (talk) 10:10, December 6, 2019 (UTC) :::And for it to be the same TT, the very relevant stuff I mentioned in my last comment would have to have happened, and there's no indication they did. Omnibender - Talk - 18:22, December 7, 2019 (UTC) Name Shouldn’t this be Isshiki’s Ten-Tails? Or should it remain as Jigen’s Ten-Tails for the time being? 02:11, September 25, 2019 (UTC) :Shouldn't the article's name be Ten-Tails (juvenile/immobilised) since that's what it's been called? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 04:59, September 25, 2019 (UTC) ::I'm for juvenile Ten-Tails, since that's what Sasuke called it. Omnibender - Talk - 18:57, September 25, 2019 (UTC) :::Why not just merge it with the Ten-Tails page under a new tab, similar to the Zetsu article Ten-Tails / Ten-Tails? Also, it seems to have a Rinne Sharingan as the first Ten-Tails had, so why is this one listed as Rinnegan? The only reason I decided to go with Isshiki's Ten-Tails is because when, not if (Let's face it, this tailed beast will likely be revealed as being a complete Ten-Tails or it will be matured into a complete Ten-Tails in the future) this Ten-Tails is revealed as such with certainty, we won't have to change it from Ten-Tails (Juvenile) to (merging it with the) Ten-Tails. I don't know. Personally, I'd keep it as is and just wait until we find out more information before hand, but I'm but a single voice, lol. We'll probably end up renaming it again in the future anyway. -- Princeharris1993 20:19, September 25, 2019 (UTC) ::::”Ten-Tails (juvenile)” works fine too. 01:43, September 26, 2019 (UTC) :@Prince, for the eye, see topic above. Sasuke called it a Rinnegan. It's not a new thing in the series for characters to call things incorrectly, but it's not up to us to decide that Sasuke is just wrong and we are right. So far, the term Rinne Sharingan hasn't been used once in the manga/anime, correct me if I'm wrong, only in the databook. The most likely explanation is that the characters simply never heard the term Rinne Sharingan. To be honest, the entire Rinne Sharingan/Rinnegan/Sharingan deal got quite confusing. There's the Rinne Sharingan, Sharingan (Mangekyou, Eternal Mangekyou), Rinnegan, palm Rinnegan .__. that is sometimes the ordinary Rinnegan color and sometimes red and then turns golden, one eyed standard color Rinnegan with tomoe, red color dual tomoe Rinnegan and then there's this thing, so shrugs.--[[User:Elveonora|'Elve']] Talk Page| 08:47, September 26, 2019 (UTC) But that argument is silly. You all decided Orochimaru's gender was to be changed, even though we know for a fact that he is MALE and literally changes the body he is in to become his original body, yet you all made the change to say otherwise. So yes, it is our duty to decide what is right based off databooks and available information. WE as viewers know that the Ten-Tails only ever wielded the Rinne Sharingan. As far as Sasuke is concerned, the Rinne Sharingan is a Rinnegan to him because he's never known anything different. When he used Genjutsu on the Tailed Beasts, he saw his own eye within theirs and upon seeing the Rinne Sharingan, most likely thought it looked like his own with a few extra tomoe. It makes absolutely no sense for us as readers to not give Jigen's Ten-Tails the Rinne Sharingan when WE know for a fact what eye it is, even if the story characters don't know what it is in the story. We have access to more information than the story characters do because we are readers. We should really put more of our knowledge to use when updating pages as to avoid situations like this, because it makes us look like we don't know what we're talking about when the information is literally right in front of us. -- Princeharris1993 12:04, September 26, 2019 (UTC)